mostlylucid

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I'd say either on the the asp.net or Codeplex as long as there is some sort of front page asp.net post linking to the release. I typically don't troll the Codeplex page looking for things.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Anywhere you want to (the current system works fine). However, it'd be nice to know of one specific site that is updated when a new "thing" is released to any of the sites you mentioned. That way I'd be able to search just that site for whatever I'm looking for and find a link to it.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

(good stuff later, please bear through the negative stuff first, tho)

Have you considered that some of your customers might be hostile because they have been abused and confused by MSFT for a long time in various ways and now you're an outlet for their anger (whether you caused it or not)? It gets a little old hearing 'softies complain about being treated like 'softies after they join up. MS has a mixed rep due to some of your predecessors, you have a chance to change it, but it's going to be hard to bear through some of the mistrust.

Blog posts like this go a long way towards bridging the gap, so I thank you for it.

Here is my suggestion:

1.) Everything, source and all, goes on CodePlex first. People willing to run with scissors can pick up whatever they want here.

2.) As things become more stable and safer, bubble wrap them and put the releases on ASP.NET for mass consumption.

Don't know much about CodeGallery and haven't had a lot of good experience with Connect, so I would shift away from those.

Again, thanks for opening this up and I hope you get good response and makes the choice clear, whatever it may be.

-Sincerely

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Without question, CodePlex should be used for anything that has source code available... and especially because it allows for patch upload. Also, the wiki and forums let you do a lot more interactivity.

For videos and 'dumpware', then ASP.Net.

As for Connect, I detest it with such vehemence that I can't recommend using it for ANYTHING. The horrid sign-in model that randomly works, the navagation from the 80s, the terrible "speed" and the extremely bad taste left in my mouth by countless legitimate bugs being "closed" because they weren't going to be fixed in the particular release cycle they were reported against. Simply put Connect is an embarrassment to Microsoft and any division that chooses to use it should be ashamed.

Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Personally I find the plethora of domain names confusing, this post (and ScottHa's image) has helped clarify them for me.

Why can't you guys just use one location and make the access vary depending upon the status of the project?

If Codeplex's interface is too limited then that's got an easy answer. Fix it!

However I can understand Connect staying separate as you might want to prevent unauthorised browsers in ways that the other sites might not care about.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I'm happy with option 3 (what we have now with better linking from www.asp.net) as I can see the rationale behind the segregation of the sites.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Connect unfortunately offers a facility that no other does right now...we can restrict who sees stuff; often necessary to protect IP / limited releases.
The Codegallery question interests me...where should we put 'binary only' preview releases which will go away at some point (in a few months?). My feeling is that as they don't have source they don't belong on Codeplex...am I wrong?

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I believe the term “stuff” and “content” are too nebulous. If you are referring to articles, and how-to’s on the usage of the technology then the ASP.Net main site make sense for that as the culture is use to pursuing information through this channel.

The source code should be hosted on CodePlex and the community should be allowed to submit patches back to MS to increase the quality of the product.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

FWIW, I say:

* Source on CodePlex
* Supported Releases on http://www.asp.net/productname

Problem solved.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Apologies, releases are three main classes, Source Code, Binary and Documentation (presentations, white papers etc...).
The open source idea (where we could take patches) is something we'd love to do...but we can't due to the fact that our bits will ship as part of Windows in future...so we'd have to own the IP and be sure of the source ; there'd be nothing asier than ripping a bit of, say RubyOnRails, porting and sticking it in ASP.NET...but it causes all sortes of legal headaches down the line...

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

@Scott G

>My feeling is that as they don't have source they don't belong on Codeplex...am I wrong?

MS is notorious for sending developers on wild goose chase for updates and patches. Why not centralize the binaries (CodePlex) to one location even if you aren’t providing the source? This allows for developers to track the revision history of a binary in one location. Step in the gap and set the standard for the rest of Microsoft to follow.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

ScottHa, but then there's the third category, unsupported non-source releases...Dynamic Data for example is not source based, it's a 'what do you think' release to gather feedback. I want these to be as transient as possible as they lose usefulness if they hang around until the rot...

@Joe: fair point...my issue is that it's hard to have a lot of content easily accessib,e on Codeplex; the UI doesn't scale...I had suggested the team just builds our perfect platform but well...

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

@Scott G

What would be the issue with hosting the content concerning the product material on ASP.Net main site and then providng links to the source on code plex? Similar to a blog post. Best of both worlds from my perspective. Am I missing something?

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Not really and I think that's a likely route. The major issue i'm railing against is haveing non-Source projects on Codeplex, just binary bits which are previews of later stuff and will probably go away. It just waters down Codeplex for me.
The major task (and believe me it could be Major) is getting the new section on ASP.NET for the 'edgy' projects work...what about lab.asp.net?

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Oh, and Chad...th anecdote at the beginning was another Microserf (my preferred term)...what he was trying to say I guess is that it's hard to understand our customers concerns unless you get out and meet them...he just put it in a very blunt manner.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Code Plex: Source
www.asp.net: Installers for releases
MSDN Code: Sample Apps
Connect: Polls about who wants an ASP.NET Mousepad (because you have to know who the person is to send them a mouse pad silly).

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I have to agree with Jordan and with your statement of the overall problem -- The hosting location is not the problem, finding the new information is.

I am tired of jumping through the hoops on all four sites (ASP.Net, Connect, CodePlex, and Code) just to find the something I am looking for or, even better, might not have heard of and want to take a look at.

One. One place to search for what is available. I care not where it is located -- Just be consistent for all bits, not just CodePlex bits or ASP.Net bits or Code bits; one starting point for it all.

Blog or Wiki style is just fine with me and allows you (Scott and the ASP.Net Team) to indicate when some bits are no longer available.

I would also want to know when some new bits are put out for consumption so a notification system would be appreciated. I realize it is old-school these days, but email notification works though even a Twitter message would get a quick notice.

Anyway, I appreciate your reaching out to the community.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

> haveing non-Source projects on Codeplex, just binary bits which are previews of later stuff and will probably go away

This is where I need greater clarity on the work flow of source control at Microsoft in order to provide meaningful feedback. From my perspective the bits are a fork of the main code stream that is being developed for the final product launch. Having said that if you merge the fork with the main code stream and provide the stack in an alpha state I wouldn’t see the issue of hosting it on codeplex. Then the community could witness the maturity of the stack as it transitions from alpha to RTM. This would provide transparency for Microsoft to the community.

> new section on ASP.NET for the 'edgy' projects work...what about lab.asp.net?

That uri would make sense since you are dealing with strictly prototype implementations. Rarely do developers download those bits but utilize those mediums as information preparedness. What would be awesome is if you could put a voting system similar to Digs in the lab.asp.net so the community could vote on what features they would like to see incorporated into future releases of ASP.Net.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Ugh. Reading three times before posting still does not save me from posting a vague statement.

I want to clarify my "One" statement.

I mean one location to post, search, etc. the new bits (Writable MS, readable community); reagardless of where those new bits are located (ASP.Net, CodePlex, Code, Connect, etc).

This would allow all of us to start at the same place and have a consistent area where everyone can find what is available. Where the resulting bits are located really is not important to me as is having a consistent location to point me to them.

Yes, I would like to stop wearing my MS spelunker's helmet so much and spend more time actually putting bits to use.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Absolutely...we are in that phase of planning now for V.Next. There's some 'politics' we have to overcome to get there. My absolute dream which may never come to pass is ASP.NET Codeplex...a Codeplex specifically for ASP.NET Projects when we could also put out stuff...but have the same functions the current ASP.NET site also has (forums etc..). I think a separate area with clear links on a specific ASP.NET section with a small piece of blurb and linking to the 'in development' projects is my current ideal. Hmm...there has been talk of us buidling some apps ourselves...I wonder :-)

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Where it's released really isn't that important, surely.
What is important is that it's easy to find.

Other than that, Option 3, or what you have now is probably the best option for me.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I think the "main" site should contain everything. have different parts of a project is different locations is kinda stupid to me personally. Either move everything to codePlex or to the main ASP.Net site.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I think it should be on the Main site. Seems to most logical place, download main release or bleeding edge version!

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Bleeding edge stuff on CodePlex. Let us edge guys whack at it with our scissors. This includes RCs whatver. Product releases wherever you want but the main site and MS downloads makes sense. Connect is too screwed up to be useful.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Please keep non-OS releases off of CodePlex. CodePlex was launched for a very specific purpose and you water it down by turning it into just another MS download site. It is not as if there aren't already plenty of other MS properties available for providing code.

Also, why does the location of the actual code bits impact the decisions about what is listed on ASP.Net? I would think that it should be fairly easy to segment the listings on ASP.Net such that stable supported products are prominently highlighted while some of the more cutting edge stuff is made available in a browseable list.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

New site for each thing released.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I totally agree with ScottHa
I totally agree with ScottHa
I totally agree with ScottHa
(repeated for emphasis)

--------------------
FWIW, I say:

* Source on CodePlex
* Supported Releases on http://www.asp.net/productname

Problem solved.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

If its OSS - codeplex.
If its not, who cares as long as there are links on the main site.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Not sure if I'm more or less confused :-)
What I am getting though is that in general people want Codeplex kept 'pure' so, with source. Apart from that as long as you can find stuff (so it's linked from the ASP.NET site *somewhere*) then that fits the general need.
Code Gallery is a bit of a bastard child but it seems preferable to the horror of Connect...

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Asp.net - branding baby!

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

How about everywhere and link it all up with the Live Mesh malarkey and then I can get hold of it on my toothbrush if I really need to ;-)

...Or how about you just give everyone read access to the DevDiv TFS?

Seriously though - Source on Codeplex; Binaries, documents and releases on ASP.NET

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I agree with the idea that CodePlex should for items with source and items without source can be on the Asp.Net site.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Source on CodePlex
Releases on Asp.net/NameOfThing

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I also agree with keeping things with source on CodePlex and releases, docs etc on Asp.net site... Making sure that asp.net site has links to CodePlex projects.

To me the Asp.net site should be the one place I need to look to see what is available but not neccesarily where I think it should be housed.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I will tell you this from my point of view. This week alone, i was looking for ASP.NET MVC code to start playing around with. I first went to ScottGu's blog, which i saw an interim build on codeplex. great. went and downloaded that.

Then i was like, well wait, is this going to be working with what i already installed? so i went to asp.net/mvc and downloaded that installer, and then got a bit confused and then eventually realized in the end that the installer was the old bits, and the code was the latest, so i just compiled the DLL's from the source, but it was a bit confusing.

This is why i say, if you want the source and the latest stuff, download and compile from code plex. but if you want to just get up and running on the latest, you should be able to just go grab an installer from asp.net/mvc and have the documentation there.

I think msdn code should be for a download for that site that is created when you make an asp.net MVC (because really, when i start an MVC project, i want a clean solution, not an example). I can see using code plex for those also, since it's source code for an application and you may want to put updates and stuff, but regardless, i think that source-y stuff should be in one place, and one-step-get-you-going-on-this-new-stuff should be an installer authoritatively on the asp.net website.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

If I had to say I guess the location matters less to me than how I (a) learn about something originally and (b) find things I heard about or relocate things when I need them again.

Where exactly things are put is only a part of the answer to those workflows (and any answer will probably evolve over time anyway) but a lot of it is how the location compliments things like insider blogging, searchability, and community presence.

So: thank you thinking about the question (this type of conversation is great) but also please do keep providing topical channels with high signal-to-noise over subject material.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I would say anywhere but CodePlex. The problem with MS projects on CodePlex is that they tend to be the most popular and thus pushing all other open source projects down from the top 10 list.

Even worse, the top 3 list of projects on CodePlex is displayed on the frontpage, but they are all MS projects.

For the sake of the open source projects already on CodePlex, MS should avoid having their own projects there.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Mads: Interesting point...we'd like to be on Codeplex but obviously we don't want to screw with the stats...I'll talk to the Codeplex team and see if we can't get some sort of 'MS' tag which excludes us from the ratings...

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I think code.msdn.com should go away for everything EXCEPT preview/temporary binaries. I rarely look at a binary only release and would hate to see stuff like that cluttering up CodePlex.

If it's got source then it should go on CodePlex, regardless of whether or not its temporary/preview. Just make sure to clean out the temporary crap when its done.

Final SUPPORTED releases (with or w/o source) should be on ASP.NET. If they're unsupported, leave them on CodePlex.

I also agree with Mads point. Didn't GotDotNet differentiate between Microsoft and non-Microsoft projects? It'd be cool if we could have filters everywhere (Home page, browsing, searching, etc) for Microsoft/Non-Microsoft projects.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Codeplex.com has a terms of use term that requires you to also most source code. If you not posting source as well, don't use codeplex.

Code Gallery seems to be the intended place for such things. I'm sure it's got a much better scaling mandate than any other MS site (e.g. they proactively increase bandwidth and space). I would suggest posting here then linking to it from the ASP.NET site(s) and Connect (if necessary).

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Why don't you just build a Codeplex-like site part into the ASP.NET site? That way you get the branding of ASP.NET and you can have the functionality of Codeplex. I'm sure they wouldn't mind giving you the source code :)

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

CodePlex for the source, ASP.NET for the release.

I'm with Mads - the MS projects are starting to clog up the CP popularity stats.

Tbh I am more in favour of a labs section for asp.net. They are all the rage these days ;-)

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I'm with Scott Hanselman,

CodePlex for the source, ASP.NET for the release.

And please release more source. Even if you wont support patches.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I agree with ScottHa.

The simpler the distro scheme, the better.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Ok, yes I think everyone agrees that simple is best. But *how simple*, my biggest concern is for those bits which aren't ready for primetime use yet; stuff we want to get to you like pre-Preview binary bits or just stuff we're playing with but which may never make the cut.
Where should we put that stuff...my current thinking is Code Gallery but is that too 'hidden'. We can't put it on the standard downloads location on MS.com as there's requirements which make this way too difficult (security, code signing, etc...). There's a movement by some to put this on Codeplex...I feel this is wrong. What do you think?

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

should we create a 'special area' on the ASP.NET site (like 'thelab' or somesuch) and provide details and link to specific downloads

Amen. That is exactly what I was asking for -- A specific area on the ASP.NET site which provides links to all current downloads (ASP.NET, CodePlex, Code Gallery, Connect, etc) with details regarding each download.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I like the idea of a lab site on ASP.NET

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Codeplex for the source, code gallery for the binaries and mainstream on ASP.Net. There should be announcements about releases to Codeplex and Codegallery in the ASP.Net Site

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Can we please differentiate between source code available and open source. They are not the same thing. When CodePlex was first marketed, it was done under the idea that it would be a home for Open Source projects in the Microsoft universe.

Just because a project has source code available should not be the discriminator as to whether it should appear on CodePlex.

It is hard enough to get Open Source taken seriously in the .Net space without Microsoft further muddying the waters. Under the source code availabe logic then the .Net framework should be available on CodePlex as well.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

From the CodePlex site

CodePlex - The Open Source Project Community

About CodePlex - "CodePlex is Microsoft's open source project hosting web site."

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

What I would like is to have one page for projects from Microsoft (source or binary) and one page for other projects (code plex). Both pages should have the same code base, have public bug tracking, etc.
The Microsoft version of this should be _the_ page to track the development of Microsoft products. Each time a product RTMs a copy will be put on Microsoft Downloads, etc. In the long term this should replace Microsoft Connect, etc.

Code Gallery could become the Microsoft-only site and Code Plex the Non-Microsoft-only site.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Actually, I think you should slow the hell down. It's impossible for anyone to keep up with all the changes, especially when most developers are still dealing with classic asp sites.

You are creating a bad situation in my opinion with the speed of change Microsoft is performing.

Am I the only developer with clients in classic ASP that I still need to support?

It's getting really old, and most (in the trench, not book writers or pro bloggers) developers I speak to don't even know, nor care, about what MS is creating weekly.

.Net 4.0 will come out, and classic Asp will still be there. Migrating a classic asp site to .Net normally requires a complete re-write, to be done right.

All this new stuff, and diminishing support for the legacy stuff will make you lose ground in my opinion.

It's becoming very confusing.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

I've gotten rather tired of all the places MS places things. I would suggest that you have a single location that has links to everything. I like the idea of putting it all on asp.net.

I don't object to having projects hosted on codeplex or code gallery or even source forge, but having a single directory is crucial in my opinion.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Definitely have all Releases on www.asp.net site.

It would be nice to have the Source Code as well as Samples on the same site as the Release. It's a little inconvenient to have to go to 2 diff. sites to get the Release, Samples, and Code.

My $.02

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

There's CodePlex, a community driven open source project being overtaken by MS. There's code.msdn, a sample, code snippet community site, with MS projects. There's ASP.NET/??? where other projects are found. CodePlex and Code.MSDN share the same base; I heard an interview (DNR or Hansleman, I think) where one of the DEVs used the code base from CodePlex for Code.MSDN (ergo, you can probably easily get the code).

Create a new location (lab.asp, code.asp, etc.) where official (from the ASP team and only ASP team) projects are posted, with or without code. Remove all existing code from everywhere else and make this the place to go for all ASP codes.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Tony, absolutely. I've already been talking to people about trying to get this exact thing happening. It'll take time (I'm a very small cog in a very big machine) but I want to get the way we release code to be the best for the people who want to use it.

# re: Where should the ASP.NET team release stuff?

Put it in the cloud somewhere and give me an RSS feed/category of feeds that allow me to keep track of releases.

Raj